What's your view on Affirmative Actions? I agree in concept, as a leg up to the less favored and poorer ones may be an alternative to make the competition against the ones who enjoy the most diverse resources to pursue knowledge a more even one, but I'm not too keen on the idea of it favoring one race over the other. It being used racially also generally hurts the Asians, who generally need higher credentials to occupy the same spot in schools and universities.
Affirmative Actions
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I disagree with it whole heartedly because like you stated it disproportionately affects certain student demographics that need to score higher JUST BECAUSE they would have to overcome someone placing of another race. Also wouldn’t you as a student want to know that you got into your school of choice on your own merit and accomplishments instead of having the lingering doubt in your mind that you’re there because of the color of your skin?
There’s nothing wrong with giving kids a chance but it should be doled out equally across the board.
I may be caucasian but I come from a single parent household. Sure I was comfortable growing up in a very small town. No one ever gave me anything and I never asked for anything more than I earned myself.
Many years back, communities looked out for their own. This was prior to government handouts and what not. Most of the time, the local church would help and those in the community would donate to the church so there were funds to help children, single mothers, struggling parents, or troubled adults. In the US, I think the way things were handled was wrong in terms of helping people through government handouts. It is great on paper but traps people in poverty and even with affirmative action and laws set in place to help those stuck there, very few make it out of that kind of life. I grew up in a middle class suburb that became an outer city ghetto by the time I was 18. People get trapped and no one is keen on addressing issues anymore that involve relationships, raising children, or education. I think Obama was one of the first to actually speak up for the black communities and say that the lack of father figures in the home is a problem. You can't say that today though.
I am all for helping people who need it, I don't care what color you are or if you had a troubled past but the issue is that far too many don't get help and far too many still live in poverty even though there is help. It makes no sense and for me, I just can't help but feel sorry for people stuck in these places. Crime ridden streets, low quality housing, piss poor education, many being raising with only one parent, always having to worry your child's life... You can give out everything free for people but this does not solve the problems.
The only solution I can see turning this around is establishing the family bond and sense of deep rooted communities again. This goes for everyone, not just those living in poverty. Lord knows we have a divide and have shifted too far from working as a family, a community, and taking care of each other like we should be.
I am all for helping people who need it, I don't care what color you are or if you had a troubled past but the issue is that far too many don't get help and far too many still live in poverty even though there is help. It makes no sense and for me, I just can't help but feel sorry for people stuck in these places. Crime ridden streets, low quality housing, piss poor education, many being raising with only one parent, always having to worry your child's life... You can give out everything free for people but this does not solve the problems.
The only solution I can see turning this around is establishing the family bond and sense of deep rooted communities again. This goes for everyone, not just those living in poverty. Lord knows we have a divide and have shifted too far from working as a family, a community, and taking care of each other like we should be.
I never really liked the idea of pushing unqualified people into jobs/universities based on their skin color. I absolutely hate quotas being set for bringing in minorities. To me it seems very counterproductive to true equality. I'd rather focus on helping people become competitive for slots in universities and jobs by ensuring they have access to a solid education and experience. The problem there is that I've seen that access to those opportunities are often not taken advantage of or taken seriously.
I kind of went a bit to wide with my response, if the focus is only on education and jobs then giving them to people who are under-qualified does set up a disadvantage.
In terms of getting into college, if you lower the bar for some people, you set them up to fail. I know some colleges will be more easy with grades depending on your color or gender but many aren't. So you send people to college that did not do great in high school and expect them to stick to a strict schedule and complete tasks on time. Many will give up and drop out, this is true for even students who come from wealthy families who buy their child's way into college/university.
As far as jobs go, it never sat right with me to hire someone over another person based on color or gender. These laws are meant to protect minorities and women from this but the way it is enforced is still the same thing. I mean, that to me is kind of racist and sexist. It should come down to working ability, skill, and education. If you want the job, you work your ass off to prove yourself. If I ran a business, I would hire the people I felt most suitable for the job. I would look at dependability, skill, education, and general personality (some jobs require certain personality traits). I mean, shouldn't that be how it is done?
I always say you can fight racism and sexism only so far before it becomes racism and sexism again and that is kind of where we are with a lot of things right now. What you have between your legs, the color of your skin, who you sleep with... none of this should matter but it does to a lot of people who say it shouldn't matter. It is confusing to me...
I get why the laws are in place but most folks these days, at least in my experience, don't think about gender or color unless it is brought up to them and most people certainly don't care who is sleeping with who. This was set up in an era where there were still a lot of older sexist and racist people who owned and ran companies and unfairly treated people. Because of backlash, you couldn't even do that today regardless of the laws in place. I think it needs to be updated according to where we are today as a society.
In terms of getting into college, if you lower the bar for some people, you set them up to fail. I know some colleges will be more easy with grades depending on your color or gender but many aren't. So you send people to college that did not do great in high school and expect them to stick to a strict schedule and complete tasks on time. Many will give up and drop out, this is true for even students who come from wealthy families who buy their child's way into college/university.
As far as jobs go, it never sat right with me to hire someone over another person based on color or gender. These laws are meant to protect minorities and women from this but the way it is enforced is still the same thing. I mean, that to me is kind of racist and sexist. It should come down to working ability, skill, and education. If you want the job, you work your ass off to prove yourself. If I ran a business, I would hire the people I felt most suitable for the job. I would look at dependability, skill, education, and general personality (some jobs require certain personality traits). I mean, shouldn't that be how it is done?
I always say you can fight racism and sexism only so far before it becomes racism and sexism again and that is kind of where we are with a lot of things right now. What you have between your legs, the color of your skin, who you sleep with... none of this should matter but it does to a lot of people who say it shouldn't matter. It is confusing to me...
I get why the laws are in place but most folks these days, at least in my experience, don't think about gender or color unless it is brought up to them and most people certainly don't care who is sleeping with who. This was set up in an era where there were still a lot of older sexist and racist people who owned and ran companies and unfairly treated people. Because of backlash, you couldn't even do that today regardless of the laws in place. I think it needs to be updated according to where we are today as a society.
True, but can't it be argued that without this leg up this unfavored people wouldn't make it otherwise? This people may be not as skilled as others who don't receive quotas but not because of individual skill, but due to inequality of income, background, access to information. I don't think we should expect a kid that was raised in a poor neighborhood, without a solid paternal figure and having to work his way out to compensate for a low income to compete on even grounds with a kid who hasn't to worry with working, and has access to the most diversified material to hone his knowledge, like theaters, incentive from his teachers and overall better structure. In this case I can see a quota serving its purpose, as we aren't quite comparing apples to oranges here, and without this advantage, those of lower income and lesser access to information may never do it.Beerus said:
And you make a good point about the ones who had a quota favoring themselves not doing so well in schools and universities which require a high level of competency in what they are there to, but do we have a study proving that these favored by quotas students usually drop out more in comparison to those that aren't? And even if it's true, there's only so much a government can do imo. While it's a good initiative to battle for a more diversified campus, the government has no way of assuring that those students will do well with the grades... but I still don't know if that alone is enough to completely disregard the foundation of the AA.
My first post touches more on the foundation needed to change the issue. You are right, the government can only provide so much and it is up to the people to take advantage of it or let it go to waste. It doesn't help when you have people in these groups telling anyone who wants to succeed or move out of the ghetto that they are sell outs and uncle toms either. There are issues within the urban culture that keep people back as well. I won't deny AA has helped people. I know it has helped some but in the grand scheme of things, it isn't helping enough. This is where my first response comes into play. I don't think it is an issue of racism anymore of a trap of government dependency mixed with a lack of family values and a strong community that keep people back these days.
There are some stats here if you want to glance over them for drop outs and statistics: https://www.creditdonkey.com/college-dropout-statistics.html (this doesn't show the information I was referring to, I can't remember the site right now)
For me, there has to be a better solution, a more fair one across the board that allows people to get access to help if they need it without it being about race or gender or hurting anyone else's chances of having a fulfilling career or future. I don't think the US government is concerned enough with fixing this problem either. They just throw enough free stuff at people and ignore them.
Aside from issues already brought forth, we have to consider the implementation via government factor as well.
There's, to a large degree, a disconnect between voters and elected officials thanks to various elements of malfeasance.
All a politician has to do is pretend to be on the voters side. I don't like to start a partisan dumpster fire here, but left-wing politicians are MUCH more egregious in this sense.
The point I'm getting around to here is that even if policies like Affirmative Action were to work as intended, we can be sure as the sun will rise that politicians will pervert it and add pork to it until it does more harm than good anyways.
People see fairness and balance, but politicians see profit and power grabs. No one is more susceptible to being fooled by them than the disenfranchised, the entitled, and the indignant. (Not that I'm lumping those together)
There's, to a large degree, a disconnect between voters and elected officials thanks to various elements of malfeasance.
All a politician has to do is pretend to be on the voters side. I don't like to start a partisan dumpster fire here, but left-wing politicians are MUCH more egregious in this sense.
The point I'm getting around to here is that even if policies like Affirmative Action were to work as intended, we can be sure as the sun will rise that politicians will pervert it and add pork to it until it does more harm than good anyways.
People see fairness and balance, but politicians see profit and power grabs. No one is more susceptible to being fooled by them than the disenfranchised, the entitled, and the indignant. (Not that I'm lumping those together)
I think it shouldn't be race based but I'm not entirely against the idea of lower income ones favoring from it. And yeah, I can see the point of the overall ghetto culture and structure dragging black people back. Many are also raised by a single parenthood and with no paternal figure which generally leads to emltional problems for the kids, like you touched in above. I think moreso than a provisory solution in this case, the matter had to be approached in a way the root problems were worked with.
There was a point raised by a YouTuber about such matter as well in which a study showed that Asian students of similar income and conditions as black students were succeeding way more than the black students and in that case it was comparing apples to apples as both ethnicities had a similar poor background.
I'm not saying that because the Asian students succeed the blacks need to follow suit, but there seems to be something ingrained in their culture, with this "need to work hard" mentality instilled in Asian ppl as deciding factors.
I know several people from single parent homes, some had money and the majority didn't. My cousin was one of them. When we were growing up she was like my best friend. Her father screwed her up and her mother screwed her even more up. She ended up going to college but she was also a stripper at the age of 17 and stripped for several years before stopping. Didn't finish college and ended up moving out of state. She is living some where in Vegas now with her mother making money doing timeshare scams.
I think it has to do more with culture vs color. Every culture has bad aspects to it that hurt themselves as well as others. Income does play a role for sure though. I think it depends on the individual, how they are raised, and who they associate with.
At this point, if it was an easy fix, it would have been fixed. I don't think the government, state or national, know how to help with these issues and just keep ignoring them as best they can.
Very long but provides good context for differing viewpoints when it comes to universities using affirmative action.
Crowders Change My Mind segments are always great.
He comes fully prepared for every talking point.